[Misiuggah]

Originally Posted by Nolenthar It really is a matter of taste and or possibility. I can do an average of 10 to 12 KK run a week and as explained above, it makes around 100 rare a week. On the other way, I'm bored after 30 minutes of faction grinding and I did more than 500 rare tokens in the time I made 1000 moa. But yes, I can understand that getting random hard mode group is rather difficult. I personnally avoid any PUG for those and prefer guild/friend list when it comes to go there. It's however not that difficult to get regurarly one or 2 new people to those, as soon as they are ready to listen and to learn to play their class better, and that's in my opinion the hardest part in making hard mode groups.

Yeah, HMs are all know-how and having a good group. Know-how you can find on the forums - take some time and you can find nearly everything. Having a good group - well, that's what MMOs are all about, eh?

Actually you need to complete less than 56 HMs (14 CN/CoM/EoY runs) to get those 196 rares. Is that so much if they all take 20-30mins? If you learn how to do them without wiping, you can get an epic item in less than 14 days (assuming you only make one run a day). How many times did you have to run T1 and T2 (which takes hours) to get your full raid set?

You can earn 50+ MoAs per hour - this you can do alone, whenever you have time. An hour a day for 2 weeks and you have your epic. For example I have 2 quests that involve killing Kang-Zai, that I can do simultaneously - 14 MoAs in 15 minutes. I'm sure there are better examples.

[Shiwan]

Originally Posted by Nolenthar It really is a matter of taste and or possibility. I can do an average of 10 to 12 KK run a week and as explained above, it makes around 100 rare a week. On the other way, I'm bored after 30 minutes of faction grinding and I did more than 500 rare tokens in the time I made 1000 moa. But yes, I can understand that getting random hard mode group is rather difficult. I personnally avoid any PUG for those and prefer guild/friend list when it comes to go there. It's however not that difficult to get regurarly one or 2 new people to those, as soon as they are ready to listen and to learn to play their class better, and that's in my opinion the hardest part in making hard mode groups.

Definitely it´s about personal taste, I do faction quests during waitting for minies so they don´t bother me much and also CD on quest expire frequently so the grind is acceptable for me.

But what regards HM - well that´s the problem we do pre arrange guild runs for HM but in our guild even total noobs are welcome (its national guild so you can imagine as far we are from elitistcs) so not each KK run guarantee the flow of rares. So far I got only 71 rares (from 221 needed for my weapon)and for my taste it takes damn long.

[RyuuKagutsuchi]

Originally Posted by Shiwan Definitely it´s about personal taste, I do faction quests during waitting for minies so they don´t bother me much and also CD on quest expire frequently so the grind is acceptable for me. But what regards HM - well that´s the problem we do pre arrange guild runs for HM but in our guild even total noobs are welcome (its national guild so you can imagine as far we are from elitistcs) so not each KK run guarantee the flow of rares. So far I got only 71 rares (from 221 needed for my weapon)and for my taste it takes damn long.

This is the opinion of an "elitist", but, getting rare tokens should take long time if you drag along n00bs that might get you wiped in KK HMs, just saying. It was dubbed hardmode pre-expansion for a reason.

[Invino]

Originally Posted by RyuuKagutsuchi This is the opinion of an "elitist", but, getting rare tokens should take long time if you drag along n00bs that might get you wiped in KK HMs

That's the biggest problem now.

On 1 side I've got vets who aren't bothered about token farm as they got T2 loot and are happy to do a few instances for fun.

On the other, I've got 5x as many willing newbies who need the loot but haven't the skills as yet.

And in the middle ... everyone leaving as neither side is happy.

[RyuuKagutsuchi]

Originally Posted by Invino That's the biggest problem now. On 1 side I've got vets who aren't bothered about token farm as they got T2 loot and are happy to do a few instances for fun. On the other, I've got 5x as many willing newbies who need the loot but haven't the skills as yet. And in the middle ... everyone leaving as neither side is happy.

I believe that a key here is that everyone is leaving :P
We shouldn't simplify everything so that the newbs can do it, leaving no challenge for the "elitists". Hardmodes was added exactly for the purpose of giving better players greater challenges and still letting the newbies do the same content. If you can suddenly start to pull with you newbies and expect to get the same progress as someone who only plays with other "elitists" something is wrong.

[Invino]

Originally Posted by RyuuKagutsuchi Hardmodes was added exactly for the purpose of giving better players greater challenges and still letting the newbies do the same content.

I agree .... there are only 2 HMs that I can't do.

What I'm saying and the "elite" frequently fails to grasp ...... normal modes give FUK ALL ... sure AA and some blues ....... but that is not what people want. They want purples and they want them this year.

What I am saying now ..... the ones who are good aren't bothered to do 200x HMs for couple of items. The ones who want to .. can't

it is no use saying "HMs are for elite" ... when elite and noob are leaving together.

[RyuuKagutsuchi]

Originally Posted by Invino I agree .... there are only 2 HMs that I can't do. What I'm saying and the "elite" frequently fails to grasp ...... normal modes give FUK ALL ... sure AA and some blues ....... but that is not what people want. They want purples and they want them this year. What I am saying now ..... the ones who are good aren't bothered to do 200x HMs for couple of items. The ones who want to .. can't it is no use saying "HMs are for elite" ... when elite and noob are leaving together.

Yes but there are supposed to be challenges in the game to overcome right? If there are no challenges to overcome there is no fun to be had.

If the only challenge for pveers is the insane amount of grind there is no fun. There have to be something that is hard to do. (Hardmodes).
And grind = mmo content, more grind = more content. Long time goals is the only thing that keeps people playing mmo once they have mastered the challenges.

[Kurt777]

The problem with hardmodes is just to find the right balance. They can easily become farm content for a well-equipped, trained and experienced group, if you go too much into puzzle content. On the other hand when making it too unfair or too hard to find out the puzzle and tactics they will just increase the gear and grind gap even more.
And challenging content is per definition not something people should do a few hundred times

[Nolenthar]

Originally Posted by Invino I agree .... there are only 2 HMs that I can't do. What I'm saying and the "elite" frequently fails to grasp ...... normal modes give FUK ALL ... sure AA and some blues ....... but that is not what people want. They want purples and they want them this year. What I am saying now ..... the ones who are good aren't bothered to do 200x HMs for couple of items. The ones who want to .. can't it is no use saying "HMs are for elite" ... when elite and noob are leaving together.

Honestly, at one point, this has to stop.

On Hyrkania, no one has succeeded Pagoda, Jade, Vortex and some people may have succeeded in Abyss HM (no exploit) recently (and it would rather be Legends or Black River Brigade if someone did but last time I checked no one ad yet but BRB was working on it), so saying there is only 2 HM you can't do is arrogant and pretty false. No one is farming Den HM either (succeeding yes, but farming ...).

Now, personnally, I play with rather good people every day and none of them are "bored" to do HM, I would even say that the best players in Hyrkania spend their time doing HM when they don't raid T3 or do RP, and those who prefer T2 armor to some very specific Khitai armor are rare.

So, please, do not speak for everyone.

Now, up to the point, the Hardmodes are specificly designed to offer good gear against a challenge. The challenge is different and there are instances which are challenge over the challenge. It offers content to even the most hardcore players, as you'll need around 700 rare tokens / toon if you want the best of the best buyable parts. In that big picture, Kara Korum instances are designed to be farming instances, with a 0 minute travelling between and a difficulty which is concentrated on the knowledge of the instance and the AA perks needed rather than on the quality of the team. Once instance is mastered, Yag Enigmata is done in 20 minutes, necro in 10 to 15 and malice in 10 to 15 minutes too for a 6 to 11 rare token income for the 3.
Pillars of Heaven hm can be done in 40 (kill Brass, go straight to Bangi) and requires no AA perks.
Flame is very easy as soon as you have 2 tanks and 1 rogue with FH and a healer who knows more or less what to do.
Palace requires a bit more attention/work but is quite easy too but requires more AA perks with SF, FH, and TW.

The next ones are a bit harder, Coppice (no exploit), Den certainly at the same level of difficulty. Jade and Abyss then, and finally Pagoda and Vortex.

It may not be true for everything in this game, but Hard modes are working as intended. Offering content, and gradual challenge to players mastering the normal mode instances like normal mode instances offer content, and gradual challenge for player mastering the old world instance.
The biggest problem in my opinion is that most of the raids are doable with 10 to 15 competent people out of 24 (it tends to be less true in T3, but will come really noticeable on the Keeper/TA) but that 24 people are purple geared, which will bring them to want better gear (which is completely normal) when sometime they are not even handling old world / grasslands nm instances correctly.

Khitai offers imo content for everyone, solo player, casual group player, grinder, or hardcore group player. Making the hardcore content available to casual player would mean hardcore player won't have anything left to do and I don't think that's a solution.

[Misiuggah]

Originally Posted by RyuuKagutsuchi Yes but there are supposed to be challenges in the game to overcome right? If there are no challenges to overcome there is no fun to be had. If the only challenge for pveers is the insane amount of grind there is no fun. There have to be something that is hard to do. (Hardmodes). And grind = mmo content, more grind = more content. Long time goals is the only thing that keeps people playing mmo once they have mastered the challenges.

I think many people see the factions as convenience stores. And they're angry, because for some reason they can't buy their lollipops and stuff. It may be also tied to the fact that in order to buy anything from a faction you just have to "grind" the tokens - no epic raiding involved, no mystery.

I come from a guild which first big achievement was completing Atzel's Fortress (ca. May'09). It took us over a year to complete our T0/culture gear, then start raiding and advance to T3. Not all of us are full T2 yet. When the expansion hit the shelves we were still focused on T2 progress. We've started making organized Khitai runs maybe 3 months ago - we have the knowlegde, skill and gear to complete most HMs with little effort. We don't waste time on NG/Chosain grinding - we do 1-2 Crater runs everyday and run KK/Painkang quests "meanwhile". And it's still fun - we never focus on only one aspect of the game. The outcome from this is that I gathered enough tokens for 4 armor pieces, but I didn't grind at all.

The rank 3 blues are really powerful - people see only the color, they don't look at the stats. You can get better gear than culture (worth a ton of gold for a casual) or T1 (weeks/months of raiding) in 2 weeks doing instances...

EDIT: + what Nolenthar said.