[Iyon]

Originally Posted by Buffarse ...The demo aggro swapping alone will stop you unless you know what you're doing...

I dont think the highest tier raid instance in a game (not counting the expansion) should be feasible without knowing what one is doing.

[Nwardezir]

Originally Posted by Abdico Well...whats is the difference betweeen a "hardcore raiding guild" and a "successful raiding guild"? Just because you dont raid 6 days a week like the X Legion doesnt mean you cant be successful.

Hardcore doesn't mean you do 6raid/week only. To me, pushing and keeping doing a broken/hard/unbalanced encounter, that's also being hardcore. Being hc is also having all the raiders willing to push it, no matter the wipes and disillusionment from the encounter.

Hardcore or not, good or bad, those are 2 different capacities.

[Xanra]

Originally Posted by Iyon I dont think the highest tier raid instance in a game (not counting the expansion) should be feasible without knowing what one is doing.

Agree, and Buffarse - how long did it take before you saw a W2 or let alone a sucsessfull W3 pug? As far as I remember it took almost a year before we saw a W3 pug on Crom.

Though - to the OP, I have to ask. Since you are on a pvp server - do you really think you can have 24 person in T3 with pvp spec and find the encounters easy?

[Nwardezir]

Originally Posted by Xanra Though - to the OP, I have to ask. Since you are on a pvp server - do you really think you can have 24 person in T3 with pvp spec and find the encounters easy?

I hope it is as easy as doing PvP with a PvE-spec Sin, with few/no CC and no CC-Immunities

[Martohtar]

Originally Posted by Nwardezir I hope it is as easy as doing PvP with a PvE-spec Sin, with few/no CC and no CC-Immunities

Afraid not sister, it's a lot easier than PvPing with a pure PvE spec. Just have to watch your agro since you have fewer tools for it, and you can actually help in the CC rotation on adds.

Originally Posted by Xanra Agree, and Buffarse - how long did it take before you saw a W2 or let alone a sucsessfull W3 pug? As far as I remember it took almost a year before we saw a W3 pug on Crom.

When Affinity started doing the first W3 PUGs on Crom, they were basically more than half-filled with people who knew what they were doing. But it caused the tactics to spread so more and more people were able to do it.

Much like how CRO runs T3 "PUGs" every Monday these days, they're not PUGs in the purest definition of the word, but it spreads the tactics and experience. And hopefully we will see more and more of them appear.

[Buffarse]

Originally Posted by Iyon I dont think the highest tier raid instance in a game (not counting the expansion) should be feasible without knowing what one is doing.

Neither do I!

I wasn't agreeing with the OP, I was merely pointing out that T3 is not feasibly doable as a non stacked/handpicked pug at the moment. I don't think it should be either.

Buff

[Buffarse]

Originally Posted by Xanra Agree, and Buffarse - how long did it take before you saw a W2 or let alone a sucsessfull W3 pug? As far as I remember it took almost a year before we saw a W3 pug on Crom.

Most pugs STILL can't do a complete W2 or W3

But I agree, I don't want it easier, as I said I think the difficulty of T3 is about right at the moment. Very hard the first time you try and very easy once you've mastered it and pretty much a PUG free zone.

Thats how it should be.

Oh and hardcore is many things to many people with a number of different parts all working together in different amounts. You don't have to be near the limits on any of these but most individuals and guilds who consider themselves hardcore will have some or all of these traits in some amount.

How often you raid and what you raid
How often you succeed
How willing are members to swop class for raid success
How able are members to swop class (i.e. are the members able to play multiple toons very well)
How often individual members can raid
How willing are people to work at and experiment with their builds to get bosses down
How the guild is organised and how the leaders conduct things

I'm sure there's more too.

Theres no one defining thing a guild or individual can do or does to make them "hardcore" it's an attitude and approach as much as anything else. Some peoples definition seems to be limited such that the only definition of hardcore is how often/long you raid for with a guild filled with arrogant idiots. I believe they are incorrect.

Buff

[Nwardezir]

Originally Posted by Buffarse Some peoples definition seems to be limited that the only definition of hardcore is how often/long you raid for with a guild filled with arrogant idiots. I believe they are incorrect.

I you.

[Kala-]

Originally Posted by Buffarse The brothers is WAY out of the reach of a non-handpicked pug and HK even more so at the moment.

As they should be. T3 is hard, and thats exactly the reason we like it. Too many games in the past went down the drain when they started making end game content "available to everyone", ie. too easy.

- Kala

[Kowx]

"nobodys even seen thoth amon yet"

I saw Thoth-Amon.

He is like a Pom with bubles and HC and aoe kick and like a Pet Necro with insane dmg and like a PvP Demo with burst dmg and he has a 5 min duration charm CC with 30 sec cooldown.

He is a GOD, hehe