[Yondaime]

funcom should change that you ned to do atleast 1 white hit to be able to perform the combo finisher , this should stop with combo finisher spamming ranger noobs.

[Killerghost]

Originally Posted by Lukoi- Lemme ask you about this first example...so, this guy fired four straight finishers and you fired what during the exchange?

Difficult to recall, but something like this.
His: armour ripper, line breaker (interupted by my LB with KB), DD (interrupted by jarring shot and reinitiated), PS. No info on advantages.

Mine: LB, white, DD (interrupted by jarring, broken and applied again), white, PS. my advatages were on CD

Originally Posted by Lukoi- And was this ranger undergeared or relatively equivalent in gear to you as far as you could tell (difficult to ascertain I imagine)?

His: PvP 4 + T1, Mine: PvP 5 (mini) + T2

Originally Posted by Lukoi- I mean, 4 naked finishers might well do better damage than an opponent firing a finisher, two white hits and another finisher in approximately the same amount of time, given the range of damage that our shots do. That's why I ask.

If so this should not be.

Originally Posted by Lukoi- As for the latter....I'd have to see that to believe it. Blue rangers two shotting a pvp6 clothie that's actually conscious. We do good damage but DD+PS even with crits is unlikely to do that kind of damage. If that's happening, definitely something that has to be addressed.....either they've got a secret or something was seriously borked.

Normally I would post after some test or verification, but it was my observation, but not limited to a single encounter. So I want to verify if I am the only one to see it. Maybe it was a rare event. But to me it is an issue that could damage the class.

[Killerghost]

Originally Posted by Yondaime funcom should change that you ned to do atleast 1 white hit to be able to perform the combo finisher , this should stop with combo finisher spamming ranger noobs.

There will be a lot of solutions, but we should identify the real issue behind this (rewarding) playstyle

[Lukoi-]

you don't see why firing just finishers might do more damage than a finisher, two white hits and another finisher?

That absolutely makes sense and it's definitely in keeping with what the Devs intended when they created "flexibility" for the class with this combo system if you think about it.

Pro's: faster use of the DPS enhanced finishers/effects.

Con's: nearly double the CD for the primary DPS item (penshot), lesser KB for LB (but who cares he was shooting a Ranger) etc.

In the case you described, it seems tactically sound to go that route. In a large brawl, putting your feats on longer CD's, failing to maximize your feats, might well put you at a disadvantage, but in an isolated one on one, just finishers sounds like a very tactical approach to the fight.

Evade was on CD I take it?

[Killerghost]

Well using naked finisher is part of the options, but mainly for special effects or flexible response within an engagement. For pure dps during an entire engagement it was not intended. If the damage output of a few naked finishers in a row is to high, this promotes an unskilled Kill orientated hit and run playstyle even within a large brawl and not just 1 on 1.

Sure I use (sometimes) a naked DD to create a DOT followed by a buffed PS (to benefit from the dot). Also a single naked PS on a (very low HP) target and accepting the CD, but used normaly after a longer engagment (with the intended combination of white hits an finishers) that has reduced the target to this low HP.

[Kurt777]

Exactly. Especially since the buffed/unbuffed ratio was not fixed, even though they said "people using white hits would be properly rewarded now"
If every shot is a heat-seeking arrow, no small wonder people complain.
Against targets which have no high mitigation (e.g. buffed debuff not necessary) this can be deadly...especially when just spamming quickshots with advantages.
Again, bring back the old combosystem or make it, that advantages can NOT be used on naked finishers or increase the buffed/unbuffed ratio by lowering all naked finisher dps (to somwhat in the middle between white hit and the damage they have now) and buffing all buffed combos (e.g. with one bonus +10%, with two boni +25%) in addition to the usual (dps boni for quick shot for example).
Also, if you are at it...include a quick "miss" animation...since combos cannot be cancelled by movement keys for rangers.
Concerning the testing...i would compare two rangers who fire a fixed sequence at a dummy for a few minutes. One does quick shot - pen shot unbuffed and one advantage when available. The other does the same, but with both upper and lower buffs applied. Of course the advantage used must be the same and stamina regen and gear must be similar. I would be curious about the results on different level ranges too.

[Nolenthar]

Originally Posted by Kurt777 One does quick shot - pen shot unbuffed and one advantage when available. The other does the same, but with both upper and lower buffs applied. Of course the advantage used must be the same and stamina regen and gear must be similar. I would be curious about the results on different level ranges too.

You can't do this, your pen shot will be on 15 s and your quick shot will be on 2 seconds cd, hard to do a sequence with us. You can indeed to 2 WH + 1 DD + 2WH + 1PS and have a cycle doing only this.
But, on a strawman, it appears than using 2WH + 1 DD + 2WH + 1 AR + 2WH + 1 DD + 2WH + 1 PS will offer more dps than the simple DD buff / pen shot buff cycle.
But using that cycle can actually make you not using the shortening CD buff on Pen Shot, as your dd / armor ripper cycle will take anyway around 15 s.


Some combos are not worth applying buff. I would rarely use deadly draw without buff in PvE situation, in PvP, i guess it's a large difference.

And asking for some nerf on our combos is dangerous, as we will hardly get back what is removed, even using buff ...

[Killerghost]

I think using a strawman can be misleading. It reacts like mobs in PvE. I'll try to verify it with other players in PvP situations.

[Killerghost]

I did some test runs. Most different types of tests we done with around 4 - 5 runs. This number might not be adequate for full scientificly based test runs, but it shows some intersesting trends.

Situation:
Ranger 1: PvP 5 and T2 gear
Ranger 2: PvP 10 and T3 gear

Damage runs:
DR1: AR + WH + DD + LB + WH + PS (a basic PvP sequance I think)
DR2: AR + DD + LB + PS
No advatages use, no AA changes, no pods

Findings:
Situation 1: Ranger 1 (full gear) agains ranger 2 (full gear):
DR1: Ranger 2 down to 30%
DR2: Ranger 2 down to 40%

Situation 2: Ranger 1 (no gear) agains ranger 2 (full gear):
DR1: Ranger 2 down to 35%
DR2: Ranger 2 down to 45%

Situation 3: Ranger 2 (full gear) agains ranger 1 (full gear):
DR1: Ranger 1 down to 20%
DR2: Ranger 1 down to 30%

Situation 4: Ranger 2 (no gear) agains ranger 1 (full gear):
DR1: Ranger 1 down to 30%
DR2: Ranger 1 down to 40%

Both ranger played the class since mid 2008 and play the class only with the appropiate WH. We were both surprised by these results.

Findings.

Although not a full scale test it shows that a low equipped ranger, only firing finishers can do almost as much damage on up to medium lvl targets as full PvP/T2 equipped rangers. The time required is limited compared to buffed finishers. The amounth of damage is enough to claim a kill on most targets (cloth, light, medium). Only higher lvl rangers realy benefit from using WH in line with the combo system. Mostly because the dots and crits are higher

I would say: this is an unintended use of our flexible combo system.

I have opened another thread to discuss a possible solution that fits within the class and prevents firing finishers only.

[talizen]

After the last patch, in Totem Torrent, when we are hitting the totem, the white hits upper and lower buffs are bugged. I need to do 5 or 6 white hits to get the buffs.