[Rhazmuz]

I think the definetly is an issue, when many players are vocal about their lack of enjoyment with the new Bori shrines.

Especially the fact you need to gather materials, seems to hit hard on the feeling of pvp.

However I think people are turning a blind eye to reasosn why they made the onbjectivities like this. As Craig said, the reasosn is to enable FC to control , to a certain degree, the progression/fairness of a system. A system solely based on killing/zerging, while ievitably more in the spirit of PvP, is also much more open to exploit.

Fc tried to give incentives to the players to keep their numbers lower. by giving higher rewrads, but if poeple cannot accept this solution, and turn to zerging, the result is a loss to the smaller guilds.

I think that poeple need to keep the intention sof FC clear: FC wants to give good content, but they also have an obligation to make it as controllable/non exploitable as possible. I think this is were the misconception of FC saying they are "happy" with how the shrines are working atm --> people are getting tokens, and generally working within the phrame of non exploitation. This is what FC wanted. The problem is then if the pvp'ers perceive this phrame as being not fun or counter productive in a pvp setting.

thus suggestions should always be made with FC situation in mind, so to expect content, where some degree of control can be excercised by them, is not gonna happen i believe.

The task is thus on how to perhaps to get better incentives in how to make people perhaps take smaller teams into cim end, and perhaps how to make people more prone to confront each other, while still working within the phrame that FC has put with the shrines.

One last big issue i think, is the fact that pvp t2 gear is tied directly to the shrines. I think this is somewhat problematic, since pvp consists of so many things, beside sjust the bori mechanic. Its easier to make tokens work for raid gear, since raid instances can be clearly defined, and thus you can defend completely tieng raid gear with tehr aid instances.

Doing the same with pvp gear is a problem, since pvp can be mini games, it can be sieges, it can be open world pvp, it can be duels or it can be shrines. However with this token system in pvp you are direclty tying pvp t2 gear to mini game san dshrines exactly, making it seem more important than the other pvp aspects, a thing which is very dangerous give the floux nature of pvp, as stated before.

Thus a solution could be to make pvp t2 gear relying on one global/unified type of tokens, which you can get in several ways by handing in mini game tokens, shrine tokens and/or some tokens base don geenral pvp conflict ie killing. I know the last one constitues a exploitation issue, but I think it must be possible to make it work while still maintaining control from FC side.

[Yay-grind]

Originally Posted by Silirrion It's not an attack at all. Certainly no offense meant. I am not accusing anyone of anything in that text. I am explaining our view on the feedback. You shouldn't see that as aggressive just because you disagree with parts, it's ok to have a different opinion. That's what drives feedback I am also not saying that there aren't ways we will be able to improve the system after the expansion, and that there was some good feedback too (in fact I am sure I actually said that...maybe even said it twice ) Any PVP system will always divide players in some capacity. Providing PVP features is about providing the players the means to make choices about how they approach the PVP game-play. It is hard to fully prevent from 'gaming' any PVP system. In fact we have a lot of discussion on just that subject I am going to quote our systems lead here in a discussion from one of our other feedback sessions with the Advocates as he explained it well (and I couldn't think of a better way to write it, this is a well summarized additional explanation of what I am getting at)

Thanks for your response and reading the Ilaliya's post I think we can all now stop speculating that cooperation on some of the servers is exploiting - its just playing the content how it was designed. Maybe this would happen with any pvp content that goes through pve means, who knows.

I'll however address this part right here:

Originally Posted by Ilaliya And at the end of the day, that's what Bori is - a PvP feature. Take it for what it is, have fun with it, and enjoy the PvP in an outdoor environment without guards. And tip Bori the god of war along the way.

Concept is great and its wonderfull when its written like this. However, by making shrines work in such a way you've cut the pvp 6-10 gear from a large part of population on all servers. Those in small guilds and solo players. There is already a big feedback to that.
There is also a simple fix to that, one that wouldn't change anything for the worse - you can make minigame token convert into shrines of bori one at a fixed rate.

[-Bombata-]

The situation on Fury is not isolated.

I play on a "small forgotten french PVE server", and I assure you the situation is similar.

[Slith]

I am fine with Bori being the way it is (dig dig dig)

Just, for the love of Mitra, DO NOT force me to do Bori to get my pvp gear!

I can do minigames for my gear till my eyes bleed with even 24h cooldown - that is preferable compared to Bori content.

After grinding to pvp lvl5 I was under impression that FC won't be able to come up with more boring and tedious system than grinding absurd ammount of pvp xp

and yet I have been wrong! (again)

now you have to grind absurd ammount of tokens - through digging

if someone want to dig for the glory of Bori, let them have it
just, please, do not force anyone to participate in that ********

it is inhumane

try getting mere 500 tokens yourself to see if you enjoy the process

[Chigo]

I agree with slith, the biggest problem with bori (and what needs immidiate fixing) is how you force us to do shrines of bori to get our gear.

i couldnt care less if it took me twice the time to get the gear through minigames/killing, than it would for someone who does bori, but just atleast make it a ****ing possibility instead of the current situation where, if you dont do bori, you're screwed.

[Tikume]

Originally Posted by Silirrion There is clearly a desire (on Fury in particular) for more reward for simply killing each other (in some capacity, but frequently requested to support zerging, but also dissuade it, large numbers bit not zerging) and what I am saying is that that would be a request for something totally different to the Shrines of Bori feature.

This is not entierly correct,

while its true that some have argue for simply killing others the vital point that has been stressed by others and a lot by myself is that the rewards from the Shrines needs to SCALE depending on how much opposition you have in the zone, a real zerg, say 30 people, that are having absolutley no opposition in the zone should not get any rewards at all. THE SAME goes for 6 players that are unopposed.

The KEY suggestion has been that in order to work the Shrine mechanic you should require some sort of item(head or some other thropy) that has been obtained by killing enemies, in order to encourage fighting and to as large extent as possible ELIMINATE the silent agreements between players not to fight eachother beacuse any such interruptions meerly slows down the progress for everyone.

The VITAL argument is not to remove the objective based PvP content that Bori indeed is supposed to bring, it is that even though Bori should be Objective Based the ingredient that HAS to remain is actually fighting eachother, not to make it mindless but to keep that PVP element alive and kicking.

Thanks.

[Silirrion]

Originally Posted by Chigo I agree with slith, the biggest problem with bori (and what needs immidiate fixing) is how you force us to do shrines of bori to get our gear. i couldnt care less if it took me twice the time to get the gear through minigames/killing, than it would for someone who does bori, but just atleast make it a ****ing possibility instead of the current situation where, if you dont do bori, you're screwed.

That we can definitely take a look at after the expansion. No promises at this stage, but I think that's an area we could look into once the expansion is out. I don't think we will consider removing or altering the Bori tokens, but the idea of adding a conversion of some kind so you could do it at a reduced and slower in other ways could be a possibility in the future.

Likewise we could consider an additional, slightly weaker, set of PVP 6-10 items without a Bori Token requirement. That could also be an addition we would consider.

[Ilaliya]

Originally Posted by Pippincro Concept is great and its wonderfull when its written like this. However, by making shrines work in such a way you've cut the pvp 6-10 gear from a large part of population on all servers. Those in small guilds and solo players. There is already a big feedback to that.

When we made the PvP gear that accompanies the Bori content, we decided to make it do more damage than T3 raid gear. And it does. This was to a large extent due to player feedback. It also is viable in PvE, and this again was due to player feedback - because PvPers in outdoor playfields didn't want to be "ganked" by monsters around the world. And where possible, we are always looking to accommodate this sort of feedback. However, if one is to make equivalencies between PvP and PvE Raid gear, then keep in mind the comparable effort needs to be in the same ballpark as much as possible. While rewarding gear that does more damage than T3 raid gear to PvPers is something we can accommodate, rewarding such gear for unorganized and unstructured solo gameplay is a different matter altogether.

In the future we may offer different sets than the "Bori set" for tokens obtained through other kinds of PvP, but the power of that gear will of course have to take the nature of the activity into consideration.

[Tungstenn]

I dont actually think that most of the playerbase dislikes shrines of bori.
I think just getting one type of tokens from either minis or bori in order to progress to t2 pvp gear is the best way to go.
Give players the option to choose wich pvp content they prefer the most.
I think that s an easy solution and will make everyone happy.

[Guts26]

I don´t make PvP but I follow this Thread.
Is ist right that you need Bori Tokens and Minigame Tokens to get the new Gear?
If this is right, the add a trader to the Game how trades Minigame Tokens into Bori Tokens with 2 to 1

Then that problem ist solved for the first time.