Sil I'll just say that its really sad to see you finally throwing down the mask and practically attacking your loyal paying customers by posts like these.
I'm also stunned that after all the feedback from all EU servers (not just the "big bad Fury") you won't recognize the main problems:
1. You gain best reward if you don't do any pvp at all. You just farm in small groups on small servers and yield best rewards. Both pxp and tokens. This is pure progression in pvp through pve.
2. Small groups and solo players can't do shrines in prime time since they are shut down by big guilds - they won't be able to get the gear ever
3. On big and healthy populated servers (those that one would think you want to promote, not practically destroy and falsely accuse of hacking, etc...) - best reward from shrines is achieved by those that play in ungodly hours, no where near primetime.
I'll give you one recognition though. You managed to divide the community and make them turn against each others. Players are being accused of exploiting by simply doing the system you implemented and are saying its ok and won't get changed.
It's not an attack at all. Certainly no offense meant. I am not accusing anyone of anything in that text. I am explaining our view on the feedback. You shouldn't see that as aggressive just because you disagree with parts, it's ok to have a different opinion. That's what drives feedback
I am also not saying that there aren't ways we will be able to improve the system after the expansion, and that there was some good feedback too (in fact I am sure I actually said that...maybe even said it twice )
Any PVP system will always divide players in some capacity. Providing PVP features is about providing the players the means to make choices about how they approach the PVP game-play. It is hard to fully prevent from 'gaming' any PVP system. In fact we have a lot of discussion on just that subject
I am going to quote our systems lead here in a discussion from one of our other feedback sessions with the Advocates as he explained it well (and I couldn't think of a better way to write it, this is a well summarized additional explanation of what I am getting at)
Originally Posted by Ilaliya
What Bori adds is a layer of game mechanics that help regulate the situation and encourage the desired dynamics of open world objective based PvP. Note I say "encourage" here because at the end of the day, players have free will. The mechanics add an inherently distruptable content-based activity, with a high interference factor. Anyone can, if they chose, disrupt whatever organization is going on in Cimmerian End. In game terms, this means PvP. And we have mechanics such as destroying altars and so forth to reward that disruption. And it's possible there are values there we can tweak, but keep in mind everything that is possible for a small force might be trivial to a large force... which is why we use "tapping" in everything from collecting resources to destroying altars, because due to cooldown timers and exclusion we can guarantee the larger force won't execute the base actions any faster.
But if players on some servers choose not to PvP by working out arrangements, this is simply players exercising their free will. As designers we can try to make this the non-optimal path, but if players really want to meta-organize in order avoid conflict they can. And this goes from everything from solo pvp, to sieges, to mini-games, and really has nothing to do with Bori or even Conan. Bori's mechanics generally do reward conflict over cooperation, but this doesn't mean players can't choose to cooperate. As long as there is free will, they will have this choice. And this is why world PvP (really, any PvP reward structure) is so tricky from a design standpoint.
You say: "the less conflict you have, the more rewards you get" and this is indeed a danger, and why finite resources are so essential in Bori, and exactly the reason we made the decision to go with resources that drop on PvP death. Now one might speculate that this cooperation effect is an artifact of having PvP and PvE in the same MMO, as PvE teaches players to cooperate (especially an MMO without system-enforced sides). And this leads to alliances, which leads to further cooperation in other areas of the game. And even in MMOs that are only about open world objective based PvP and finite resources, I think you do see a trend of increasingly larger zerg alliances until you are basically left with one alliance and no conflict. These are all very Big Issues (tm) and the sorts of things designers wax philosophical about when discussing MMOs in general. So we aren't going to solve it in a single PvP feature.
And at the end of the day, that's what Bori is - a PvP feature. Take it for what it is, have fun with it, and enjoy the PvP in an outdoor environment without guards. And tip Bori the god of war along the way.
Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
biggest prob with shrines is No Attack Policy's as that prevents them from working as intended.
If you had to control all three Shrines to make sacrifaces, it would be a whole different ball game, one about tactic and numbers.
sneaky answering as i was posting...
Last edited by Caborthewanderer; 8th April 2010 at 10:40..
But in the end after reading your post that player X is still left without a clear YES or NO answer.
That wasn't the question of the thread though. That was a question you just asked. The question of the thread was:
'Can we know if some path is coming before the expansion for fix Bori mechanics?'
Which I am pretty sure is what I answered on (in detail no less).
That is a pretty good example of why you don't see as many developers for MMOs willing to answer questions openly and honestly. I answered the question (in a lot of detail) and you claim I didn't because I didn't answer an additional question you didn't ask until after I had answered? I'll leave that one there....
Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
So the the majority of the servers are satisfied? And the negative critcism are coming mainly from the Fury server?
Ok well considering the fact that Fury is the most populated PvP server, and Bori is a PvP content, might that not be an indication of something?
Im sorry but when it comes to a PvP content Fury is NOT a minority.
Indeed not, again, I never said that.
What I said was that the underlying message of the feedback from Fury is that many there want something totally different, something that is not really anything to do with the Shrines of Bori.
It's a valid position, and a consideration for the future. There is clearly a desire (on Fury in particular) for more reward for simply killing each other (in some capacity, but frequently requested to support zerging, but also dissuade it, large numbers bit not zerging) and what I am saying is that that would be a request for something totally different to the Shrines of Bori feature.
It is also a difficult proposition, and involves several design challenges, that's all I am saying. So as not to set unrealistic expectations. I think it's a good thing that we can have an open discussion about these types of considerations.
It's not a partisan thing. We want to provide good functional PVP features. Shrines of Bori is a good functional PVP feature, as are mini-games, not everyone will prefer that style of PVP, that's ok. We understand that. Some forms of PVP are harder to support systems wise due to the nature of how players approach exploiting such systems. That is not to say we just then ignore it because it is hard, far from it, it just means that you should be aware that there are challenges in providing that specific type of PVP content that you personally might prefer over others.
Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
Sil 1.07.1 fixes pve problems but you refuse to fix the pvp problems, that just once again shows how little you care about pvp'ers.
How hard can it be to just give us some options? guilds on fury is starting to ditch CE, its getting empty already.
Every small guild or solo players will be completely unable to get the tokens they need to get the gear, simply because its not possible.
does it make sense to you that an underpopulated pve server (underpopulated in terms of pvp) will be pvp 10 and fully geared before anyone on the actual pvp server have even gotten a single item?
Why cant you just implement a quest making us able to trade in minigame tokens for bori tokens at a reasonable rate, how hard can that be? if not permanently then atleast give us something to chew on while waiting for the patch after the expansion - and bori is not that.
In my opinion Bori (bori-ng for me) is a kind of content pvp who just will like the ppl who dont play pvp very often. They dont need to be very good in pvp to win they just need to go there with a big group and keep the altars.
Its not a bad idea to have this kind of content, could To foment more pvp new players. The bad idea its you need to play this content to have access to some pvp gear.
Last edited by g4nimedes; 8th April 2010 at 10:51..