[Nwardezir]

Originally Posted by -Legend- Max DPS dagger combination is a Spine of Dagon (MH) and Edge of the Night Spirits (OH). The extra crit/crit damage and offhand puts the Edge ahead of the Dagger of Envy's Fury in OH.

Better than dual Spine ?
Nobody seems willing to talk about that combination.

[-Legend-]

Originally Posted by Nwardezir Better than dual Spine ? Nobody seems willing to talk about that combination.

I didn't really want to get into the obvious (and yeah, that is the obvious), I was more going for entry level drops. But I'll humour you, and maybe give you something to think about you may not have considered

- Because it's not worth the trouble. I mean, the offhand rating is nice, but you pretty much get that with the Edge of Night Spirits.

Bel's Mirth, meh.

stack some combat rating? meh

The extra crit damage would be nice, that's about it, 50 crit damage, and extra 33 offhand, worth the effort? not imo.

It IS going to be marginally better than previously mentioned combo, but to such a small extent that it's not worth it, at least for PVE.

I tell you what no one talks about, Spine of Dagon, and Ell of Torment (offhand), I think that would be more DPS than dual Spines, because of 97 crit in the Ell, I'd be more interested to test that. Sure you have no offhand (which is kind of a big deal), and 50 less crit damage, but, 97 crit, 100 combat rating (or 200 combat rating if you don't go with the second Bel's Mirth).

[Djain]

Originally Posted by -Legend- I tell you what no one talks about, Spine of Dagon, and Ell of Torment (offhand), I think that would be more DPS than dual Spines, because of 97 crit in the Ell, I'd be more interested to test that. Sure you have no offhand (which is kind of a big deal), and 50 less crit damage, but, 97 crit, 100 combat rating (or 200 combat rating if you don't go with the second Bel's Mirth).

Thought about that and also talked with another sin in my guild a while ago concerning it.

If you consider the stats, Ell seems the better choice for offhand-PvP, considering the various stats that's not on the Spine (protection, immunity rating, evade) and the extra crit rating and magical dmg. However it's hard to figure out if the PvE dps will actually be better.

Anyone know how much +27 magic dmg increases soul strike, dark weapon and vile corruption dmg? It has -hate, which is always nice for PvE, higher crit rating (about 1.1%?), but 185 less combat rating (5.14) dps... I think dual spine is better for PvE, but haven't had the chance to check the Spine/Ell combination on TL.

[-Legend-]

Originally Posted by Djain Thought about that and also talked with another sin in my guild a while ago concerning it. If you consider the stats, Ell seems the better choice for offhand-PvP, considering the various stats that's not on the Spine (protection, immunity rating, evade) and the extra crit rating and magical dmg. However it's hard to figure out if the PvE dps will actually be better. Anyone know how much +27 magic dmg increases soul strike, dark weapon and vile corruption dmg? It has -hate, which is always nice for PvE, higher crit rating (about 1.1%?), but 185 less combat rating (5.14) dps... I think dual spine is better for PvE, but haven't had the chance to check the Spine/Ell combination on TL.

Magic damage does not apply to assassins. We don't get calcuations for it (clearly by design as barbarians do).

So cutting through the crap, what we have is:

Stats of:
Spine of Dagon (for offhand I would gem it as such, +33 offhand, +100 combat rating, +50 crit damage +30 combat rating +41 fatality rating, I don't think Bel's Mirth has merit in offhand, at least for PVE, I have tested and haven't exactly seen double procs or anything)
+277 combat rating
+88 offhand rating
+55 crit rating
+116 crit damage rating
+41 fatality rating (i think, i'm not in game to check, i forget the fatality stat on the black gem)

Ell of torment (gems: +100 combat rating, +100 combat rating, +41 crit rating)
+200 combat rating
+97 crit rating
+67 crit damage rating
some hate decrease, protection, evade and immunity all of which is nice.

Ell lacks offhand, it loses some crit damage, but I've never been totally convinced about crit damage multipliers for sins, I'd rather the crit rating there. Loss of combat rating is also countered by the extra crit, I think it's a toss up, Spine might still win, but not by much, and only really because offhand is such a good stat, but for PvP, the Ell of Torment is king for an offhand weapon going by these stats.

An important aspect of the Ell of Torment is linking it to all the drooling demos and make them jealous that you put it on an assassin :P

Now compare all this with Edge of the Night Spirits:
90 Dex (270 combat rating and other nice stats like evade and stam etc)
53 Crit Rating
54 Fatality Rating
67 Crit Damage
65 Offhand Rating

I forget the stats of the T3.5 dagger off Zaal, pretty sure it's very similar stat wise to the Edge of Night Spirits but replaces the offhand rating with 111 combat rating, and has 81 base DPS. It's ugly as **** though so I wouldn't want it.

[Nwardezir]

Originally Posted by -Legend- I don't think Bel's Mirth has merit in offhand, at least for PVE, I have tested and haven't exactly seen double procs or anything

Last time I parsed, ACT clearly showed on every test that double Bel's Mirth gives twice more procs.

That's why I keep using double Spine, and I built my template according to that (heavy magic with Dark/Dread, pumped detonation etc).

Originally Posted by -Legend- I forget the stats of the T3.5 dagger off Zaal, pretty sure it's very similar stat wise to the Edge of Night Spirits but replaces the offhand rating with 111 combat rating, and has 81 base DPS. It's ugly as **** though so I wouldn't want it.

T3.5 - Blade of the Ancient Sands:
81.4 DPS (79-132)
+89 dexterity
+110 combat rating (dagger)
+35 hit ratring
+56 critical rating
+65 critical dmg rating

T4 - Dagger of Silent Lullaby:
85.7 DPS (83-139)
+28 hit rating
+50 critical rating
+66 critical dmg rating
+256 combat rating (cold)

[-Legend-]

Originally Posted by Nwardezir Last time I parsed, ACT clearly showed on every test that double Bel's Mirth gives twice more procs. That's why I keep using double Spine, and I built my template according to that (heavy magic with Dark/Dread, pumped detonation etc).

Hmm, even still with the shorter duration, kinda hard to tell when it's gonna proc for a big bomb etc, but with the SDS dots ticking more times than they're not, it's not bad.

Originally Posted by Nwardezir T3.5 - Blade of the Ancient Sands: 81.4 DPS (79-132) +89 dexterity +110 combat rating (dagger) +35 hit ratring +56 critical rating +65 critical dmg rating T4 - Dagger of Silent Lullaby: 85.7 DPS (83-139) +28 hit rating +50 critical rating +66 critical dmg rating +256 combat rating (cold)

Yeah that's it. T4 dagger doesn't exist yet keep in mind, guessing it's gonna drop off the last 2 bosses (unless Emperor drops everything, which would just be silly). If that's the finished product, it's only good for main hand, awful for offhand. Blade of Ancient Sands is the same, cept Spine of Dagon destroys it, me no likey.

[Zaelot]

Originally Posted by Arienella Well, +% weapondmg gives basicly nothing for a Sin. Still higher basedmg of a dagger helps alot due to the 190% weapondmg from the Lotus-tree... hence lethargy from the Gen Tree aswell as Pitfighter are pretty useless. Example at SSX: (This is a translated version. No idea how up to date it is and some data might be inconsitent after the combo-nerf, but the base mathematic is still the same.) G-DPS = DPS of the Sin B-DPS = Bonus dps for the start/end of a combo (listed in combotooltip) SS-X Starter: 1 sec * (250 G-DPS + 48 B-DPS ) = 298 dmg White-Hit1: 1 sec * 250 G-DPS = 250 dmg White-Hit2: 1 sec * 250 G-DPS = 250 dmg White-Hit2: Finisher Finisher: 2.8 sec * (250 G-DPS + 430 B-DPS ) = 1654 dmgM If this combo does 2702 dmg in 5.8 secs, so it has a DPS of 465 (2702 dmg / 5.8 sec) Our Sin in the example has 250 dps and we say that he has an dagger with 70 dps. Now we also think he has +10% weapondmg from the conq on him and he got 7 dps more out of it. We say that this 7 dps are already included in his 250 dps This means the 7% weapondmg buff would have buffed the total dmg for 1.5% Same applies for Lethargy in the gentree which gives 17.5% weapondmg. Apparently this will only apply to white hits and for a combo like above it would give you around 2.6% more dmg... and if you look alone at the finisher, you can subtract 1% of this number again. Source: http://aoc-tarsius.de.tl/3-.--Beispiel-einer-Kombo.htm Creater: Tarsius

the point of my post was more about the daggers dps than %weapon dps increases. 1 dps more equates to a fraction over 3 dps increase from base weapon damage alone. This is why the spine is so damn powerful. The spine gives the equivalent increase of 3 big pieces of brittle blade gear over the next best dagger

[Zaelot]

Originally Posted by -Deukalion- Hmmm, well, lucky for me i didn't buy that hyrkanian dagger yet. So once you become pvp level>8 the hyrkanian dagger is kind of obsolete...?

Yes. T2 tbh makes it obsolete for the effort. It's basically a downgraded replica of a t3 void dagger.

I also do not believe void or hykarnian dagger would yield greater benefits than the t3 sin daggers. I know I'd lose the 3% combined crit rating for the solid deeps increase. Considering I'd still have between 23-26% crit rating depending on BB or anti hate gear.

Mainhand spine and offhand void would be my crit choice. Failing that 2 requiems lol I should be so lucky. I would indeed take the crit rating loss in pvp at least for solid dps and 40 odd const then offset it with BB head and. Best and get same crit rating back and more hp.

Hykarnians daggers are wasted effort IMO. Wasted effort much like my mini dagger since I have void dagger

[Arienella]

Originally Posted by Zaelot the point of my post was more about the daggers dps than %weapon dps increases. 1 dps more equates to a fraction over 3 dps increase from base weapon damage alone. This is why the spine is so damn powerful. The spine gives the equivalent increase of 3 big pieces of brittle blade gear over the next best dagger

I know, I just wanted to give out a few more informations on how +weapondmg works and why it is useless to feat. Still Sins get 190% of it for free but shouldnt invest featpoints or into pitfighter, except they have every other fancy AA stuff already.

[Skant]

Originally Posted by Nwardezir Last time I parsed, ACT clearly showed on every test that double Bel's Mirth gives twice more procs. That's why I keep using double Spine, and I built my template according to that (heavy magic with Dark/Dread, pumped detonation etc).

it does double procs but it can proc 1 second after the previous proc. so it is 4ppm but its not 4*7.5 sec duration.