[Tikume]

Originally Posted by Bloody9 That is very welcome news. However, do you realize that will mean, in effect, that better PvP gear will be obtained through PvE than through PvP. It's the raid gear/pvp tier 1 gear issue again, only difference is, the new set is CALLED a PvP set. However, what's going on Aquilonia with the Shrines cannot be called PvP by the longest stretch of imagination.

I agree, while the PvP minigame only armor set is a welcome addition to the game as i see it, the core problem with Bori remains unsolved, which is that there has to be a PvP element to Bori, while maintaining the objective based PvP.

Now, Sil called it a theory that people have the "gentleman approach" and do not fight eachother. Well its not, its a reflection of what is happening in practice.

I hear on the two RP servers they are not fighting eachother and instead have a gentleman agreement, be it open or quit, not to attack eachother, but really i cannot speak for those servers.


I will speak for Fury, were I am starting to see a pattern:

While on Fury no one ever thinks twice about attacking another player in the Border Kingdoms, PvP has not moved there completley for the very reason that there is nothing to gain from that.

Instead a pattern is emerging were certain guilds control the Shrines at times the suit them, they establish complete control at these times and go about token farming. Rough example:

Guild A is in control from 21:00 - 05:00, Guild B from 05:00 to 12:00, Guild C from 12:00-16:00, then you start seeing LESS acticity coming into primetime and maybe sporadic fightig until the sieges start were there is a break. And then it starts over.

All the while the only problems these guilds are facing are small groups of players that are out for a few kills and fun, but with no real gain for these players.

Its interesting how the activinty in the zone DECREASES during prime time, since everyone knows that there is no gain going there at that point.

[MagnusLL]

Interesting replies here.

I have to disagree on one thing, though: the players "gaming the Bori system" by using non aggression pacts are not just "exercising their free will" by choosing a non intended path which results in a suboptimal token gain. Quite the contrary, they are simply not being stupid because entering any sort of conflict will invariably result in a *FAR LOWER* token/hour ratio on all characters involved.

Let's analyze the main limiting factors in collecting tokens:

- there are 4 altars in Cimmerian End which can be used on a rotation. So this means unless there's 5 of more separate guilds in the area, it makes sense to have guilds getting one altar each and taking turns in sacrificing thus avoiding the 50% penalty reduction
- the only other significant limiting factor is the T3 resource nodes. While it is true that the absolute optimal token/hour ratio would be obtained by keeping constant control of the T3 area, the realities of any realistic PVP situation make it so that it is far more rewarding, in the long term, to simply take turns in harvesting that area too (e.g.: 30 minutes each) and use the rest of the nodes (T1 + T2) when it's not your turn in the rotation.
This is because having to actually fight for the zone will make you lose so much time just in the actual fighting to severely affect the rate at which you can sacrifice. Also, since one character can only have one T3 rare on himself, the most efficient way of doing this would be to have lots of characters getting all 4 T3 rares on them and then moving to an altar for a long sequence of offerings, but:

A) - this activates the diminishing returns of sacrifices since you have many players in the area
B) - the T3 nodes do not replenish themselves quickly enough to allow for more than 6 characters on a continuos farming cycle anyway


Bottom line: collaborating and taking turns is *BY FAR* the optimal way of getting tokens, in the long run, unless there's more than 4 different groups in the zone.

So yes, the players are indeed "gaming the system" by choosing to not pvp. However they are not "descending to a suboptimal routine" by doing that; quite the contrary. It is simply impossible to gain tokens faster by fighting than it is by cooperating. And this can't seriously be considered a design goal of any pvp system.

[bandytaz]

Originally Posted by Haqikah I wonder why in a MMO environment players 'need' a reward - besides having fun - while in a FPS game players only get the honour of wining or loosing? It seems to me that for some inexplicable reason players expect some kind of progression in a MMO while such a thing does not exist in a FPS. But why I wonder? Are we so conditioned by previous games in this genre?

Yeahyeah, what about all these silly ranks, statistics, unlocks?
There used to be "pure fun" FPSes, but now...People are changing. Just saying.


Anyway good to hear that Sil was harrased by community so much that he decided to make us little gift Thanks!

I made some thoughts about Shrines and posted it on polish board, I dont have time now to translate or rewrite, but for sure I will do this later because imho it is really worth reading ;>

In shortage, the point is that the Bori arent FC fault (maybe a little ), but community fault.
Some players just forget what "fun" means and put their demands and "iwannanewshinyarmor" over everything elese what really matters in mmo games. Sad but so true.

[Misy]

Originally Posted by bandytaz In shortage, the point is that the Bori arent FC fault (maybe a little ), but community fault. Some players just forget what "fun" means and put their demands and "iwannanewshinyarmor" over everything elese what really matters in mmo games. Sad but so true.

I think the same. The bad thing of this, is that perhaps it be what we get, a game with the centre in that, in to grind rewards, forgoten other kind of things, perhaps more deeps.


I think all this came of Wow style gameplay. I think Wow have damaged a lot the quality of a lot of things in the MMORPGS, and i would like other kind of things.

Perhaps a bit more sandbox. For example i like The Secret World for to have part of old style.

A pvp very based in indiviudal rewards or levels, i think is a content very poor, and bore.

I think must to have a gift or reward or progresion, but be secondary, not the main thing.

(post in bad english)

[Glytoz]

Bori is a huge fail Thats the end of it. Bori only works on small servers or servers whithout pvp. FC dont understand basic pvp mechanics. They never have. They implent pvp stash, look at how it works on their public servers and trust in feedback from other ppls with no clue regarding PvP, and they fail fail and fail. So sad.

U cant seriously mean that the Bori failure is anyones but FC`s fault. U cant pvp in Bori for Tokens if u dont have the biggest group. And for that Bori is a fail. This alone wouldnt bother me much. Its new content and its pretty much impossible to hit the golden middleway in the first attempt. What makes Bori a HUUUGE failure, is that FC dont ****ing understand that Bori needs tweaking.

Im 100% certain that Bori can be made a success with the exact game mechanics as it has today. 100%. It only needs some small adjustments and a few big ones, which wouldnt demand **** for coding. But with FC`s current attitude regarding the pvp issues in this game, it will most likely not happen before it starts snowing in hell.

[Bloody9]

Originally Posted by Tikume Now, Sil called it a theory that people have the "gentleman approach" and do not fight eachother. Well its not, its a reflection of what is happening in practice. I hear on the two RP servers they are not fighting eachother and instead have a gentleman agreement, be it open or quit, not to attack eachother, but really i cannot speak for those servers. I will speak for Fury, were I am starting to see a pattern: While on Fury no one ever thinks twice about attacking another player in the Border Kingdoms, PvP has not moved there completley for the very reason that there is nothing to gain from that. Instead a pattern is emerging were certain guilds control the Shrines at times the suit them, they establish complete control at these times and go about token farming. Rough example: Guild A is in control from 21:00 - 05:00, Guild B from 05:00 to 12:00, Guild C from 12:00-16:00, then you start seeing LESS acticity coming into primetime and maybe sporadic fightig until the sieges start were there is a break. And then it starts over. All the while the only problems these guilds are facing are small groups of players that are out for a few kills and fun, but with no real gain for these players.

It's pretty similar on Aquilonia, actually. With some important differences.

There's no gentelman's agreement, as you have been wrongly informed. Instead there's about 4, maybe 5 biggest guilds. Those pretty much 'take turns'. That means there's usually just one of them in the zone in any serious numbers. That's not because of any agreement, but because the others know that if they can't outnumber the other side, there's no point in coming to CE at all.

Then, late at night solo players and small groups come out to play and get some tokens. All said I'd be surprised if 10% of players on AQ have the opportunity to play the Shrines.

[bandytaz]

Originally Posted by Glytoz Bori is a huge fail Thats the end of it. Bori only works on small servers or servers whithout pvp. FC dont understand basic pvp mechanics. They never have. They implent pvp stash, look at how it works on their public servers and trust in feedback from other ppls with no clue regarding PvP, and they fail fail and fail. So sad. U cant seriously mean that the Bori failure is anyones but FC`s fault. U cant pvp in Bori for Tokens if u dont have the biggest group. And for that Bori is a fail. This alone wouldnt bother me much. Its new content and its pretty much impossible to hit the golden middleway in the first attempt. What makes Bori a HUUUGE failure, is that FC dont ****ing understand that Bori needs tweaking. Im 100% certain that Bori can be made a success with the exact game mechanics as it has today. 100%. It only needs some small adjustments and a few big ones, which wouldnt demand **** for coding. But with FC`s current attitude regarding the pvp issues in this game, it will most likely not happen before it starts snowing in hell.

You are still missing something. You cant get it NOW.
And you want it now ONLY because it is new, cool and nobody have it.
You can start treating this as raid, 24 ppl and no one above this and imagine instance full of these 24ppl raids fighting each other. It could be fun.

But no, a lot of players want just to "lock" zone for themselves and they can only achieve this by calling more and more of guild mates to instance. Even if this is not even close to fun or rewarding.

Winning and Losing is fun, but only for one side. Equal battle is just epic and fun for everyone.

There is still "old" PvP content (probably everyone is bored by playing it for almost two years...) and no one is forcing you to gain tokens and new gear. It is not a race, you dont have to be first, you cant win in this game. You can wait (not like those transffering/farming ppl) and eventually you will get what you want.

I said.

[Tyrfing]

Originally Posted by Pugio It'd be nice if they fixed the facial textures that they screwed 9 months ago in patch 1.05 before the expansion. I guess you gotta have a dream.....

OR! Allow us to RE-Customize our characters.. my bloody Barb looks like he have had a fry-pan in his forehead atm! >.<

[-Arok-]

Originally Posted by Ilaliya The new set will have to be weaker than the Bori set, since it will only require mini-game tokens. Obviously, it will still be more powerful than the existing "T1" PvP set.

To me this is a good solution.
BUT please keep in mind that it will make the gap bigger between BK owners and the others because big guilds are usually bk owners and are the ones farming Bori tokens by zerging.

Result:
Bk owners zerg in mass, are already more organized, have the retarded bk buffs, have the best gear much earlier than the others, and now thanks to Bori, they'll have the best pvp set that this time no one out of these big guilds can even dream about.

[Glytoz]

Originally Posted by Silirrion Ok, Ilaliya and I have spoken a bit about this now, and this we think can be done. We will aim to introduce a new set without the requirements for Bori tokens, that is less powerful but will allow players the choice to seek out that set if they prefer the minigame / general PVP route. It almost certainly won't make it into the update next week, but we will see if we can find a slot before the expansion for it (and worst case we will include it with the expansion release update)

Why the hell waste time on this when ya should use time on making Bori better content. This is one of the biggest damn problems in FC! Huge failure when it comes to understanding pvp mechanics. Listening to all the damn whine and implenting more and more crappy features wich will make AoC a even more crappy game.

Bori can be a great success if ya get your heads out of your arses and tweaks it to it works. Which ya with this certainly proves that ya dont intend to do. Jeez.. Stop listening to damn whine and start doin the ****ing right thing for once.

This will solve exactly NOTHING.